Scampi
You’re gonna kill me but I can’t help wanting this boat in a bigger size. I keep seeing myself standing in the hull, my head just poking out one of the hatches. I’ve just woken up in the morning of a new bay, coffee is brewing on the cooktop, fog lifting. I have a nice double berth in the pod, a modest galley, chart table and somewhere there is a toilet. Maybe 32’ LOA?
You’re gonna kill me but I can’t help wanting this boat in a bigger size. I keep seeing myself standing in the hull, my head just poking out one of the hatches. I’ve just woken up in the morning of a new bay, coffee is brewing on the cooktop, fog lifting. I have a nice double berth in the pod, a modest galley, chart table and somewhere there is a toilet. Maybe 32’ LOA?
But surely that’s just madness…. :o)
Hehe, good one Pr1066!
You’re gonna kill me but I can’t help wanting this boat in a bigger size. I keep seeing myself standing in the hull, my head just poking out one of the hatches. I’ve just woken up in the morning of a new bay, coffee is brewing on the cooktop, fog lifting. I have a nice double berth in the pod, a modest galley, chart table and somewhere there is a toilet. Maybe 32’ LOA?
...and I want a pony!
But seriously, I do see scampi (like its namesake) as a small big boat, as opposed to Pinto which is a big small boat.
I bet 28’ loa would be an improvement…but a lot more money. My original goal was to be less than 1/2 the cost of Madness. At 24’ I might be close to that (not including the cost of having it properly engineered).
Aloha Chris, Like what your getting to, I would place the mast bit more to windward, as I think the headstays are in a too steep angle , or in other words; the steeper the stays, the more the mast will start “pumping” in a seeway, generating huge forces on your headstays, and due mast compression.
or : how about sticking a simple free standing mast in a tube , the tube could be laminated to the end of centre main bulkhead, in such way you get rid of all nasty “jerking"motion from your stays.
just an idea….... Cheers Sven
Aloha Sven,
Interesting thought. Maybe its a “semi stayed” mast. Largely freestanding, but still taking advantage of the wide staying base when sailing but will still stand up aback?
I like freestanding masts, but it feels like a waste on a proa, with all of that staying base. The beachcat rig has a lot of power and tunability.
What kind of a staying angle to leeward would you want to see for a stayed rig?
Thanks for your thoughts,
chris
Aloha Sven,
Interesting thought. Maybe its a “semi stayed” mast. Largely freestanding, but still taking advantage of the wide staying base when sailing but will still stand up aback?
I like freestanding masts, but it feels like a waste on a proa, with all of that staying base. The beachcat rig has a lot of power and tunability.
What kind of a staying angle to leeward would you want to see for a stayed rig?
Thanks for your thoughts,
chris
Aloha Chris,
On Pacific Bee its 7.3 degrees and that is just enough , though you need to be 100% sure the length is absolute stretch free, no bending vaka either ,and the ww shroud very tight, reason is that due to the flexibly of the platform the ama goes up, ww shroud slackens , and as a result the whole rig start to jerk around, so I tend to set a lot of power to the ww wire to prevent this .
only 1 wire on a freestanding mast will jerk the masttop around violently, in the end it will likely break, in all proas under 35ft I would surely put a freestanding mast.
I tried a freestanding mast design for the new 56 footer , but that gets way too expensive and very heavy , so I remain with the PB type of rigging, its proven, fast, & low windage.
cheers Sven
only 1 wire on a freestanding mast will jerk the masttop around violently, in the end it will likely break, in all proas under 35ft I would surely put a freestanding mast.
INTERESTING!
So does that rule out a jib on a freestanding rig? Imagine the current configuration with no stays and a non rotating mast.
How about 3 wires, with the freestanding bit holding it up when caught aback?
How about a stayed rig with fore and aft stays, and a strut to windward?
On a freestanding rig for a cruising boat do you like;
One conventional mainsail? Main and a small jib like the current configuration?
One balanced lug? Two balanced lugs?
Two sails that roll up on the mast like Gilles Montaubin uses, but with self vanging booms like this
http://proafile.com/forums/viewthread/221/ (post #11)
One cambered (and slotted) junk like this
http://proafile.com/forums/viewthread/196/ (post #14 and 15)
I want it to be easy to single hand in the rough weather of northern California.
Thanks as always for sharing your proa wisdom.
chris
The Gilles Montaubin type of mast/sail with a self vanging boom might be nice on Scampi. This is the same rig I played with on Pinto, before switching to the cheaper (wood composite masts and yards) balanced lug…the original scampi rig.
Anyway, it would be a nice, if expensive, rig for Scampi.
I started contemplating schooners after reading John Pizzey’s most recent article.
My basic objection is that while the fixed main is great in that wind pressure on it when reversing to shunt induces the craft to pivot to its new heading, as did the sails on Pi, in its new aft position it will quickly point you up into the breeze and you may be caught in irons and struggle to get underway again, whereas with a sail out front you will always head off on the new tack upon trimming the sail.
Being able to fall off out of a shunt isn’t something I thought about before. I’ve used the beach cat trick of easing the main traveler mid tack to get the jib to bring you around on stubborn charter cats. Of course Russell and Sven shunt under main only.
http://proafile.com/forums/viewthread/27/
Does the shifting CLR help the boat fall off out of a shunt? Sounds like John’s boats, with both rudders down all the time and one locked, might have less CLR shift in a shunt.
Anyway…here’s the pricey schooner.
I’ve also compared it to my last beach cat rig. The schooner is only 190sq ft total and the beach cat is 165 in the main and 50 in the jib..
more pictures…
more pictures…
Aloha Chris,
IMHO Thats it !! I like it alot ..... “the schooner” for the perfect cruising machine . its about what I have in mind for a while.
- Additionaly, I would add a small roller flat reacher on a loose roller drum, which you would carry upwind in lighter winds and reaching w/speed. [roll up ,douse, take away]
-I forget about stays ,it adds nothing at all for this size PacificProa’s. actually the mast section could be of a hybrid glass/carbon to enable it to bend if a sudden gust hits, and so opening up the fathead main before any RM issue occurs. [to get that right , one have to do a lot of calculation ,its a real engineering challenge.
-Easy to trailer ,and rig [ I would keep the beamends above the ama and vaka deck for watertighness, and easier to detach and assemble ]
- The mainsail on tracks, with a fathead main .
- Two simple carbon/wood wing sections , you don’t need anybody to set the masts, use a jockeypole and simply stick them in the tubes. , I would take wishbone booms, as booms on decklevel will interfere with the crew.
- A wishbone gives no stress on the the mastbase, hence the spars are simpler & cheaper to make.
-The only downside the schooner setup is hard upwind , where the Pacific Bee [sloop rig] setup is [gross estimate 30%] quicker than the schooner setup, but who cares cruising, your 2 to 3 times faster than monohulls anyway.
- You need a smart way of releasing the mainsheets , in case of emergency…. like a double camcleat or anything , I have to sketch that yet…
On the 56footer I projected a automatic pneumatic release system , that reacts on a heeling angle sensor, combined with velocity sensor. Iam fiddling around w/ that now. but this would be one step to far for daysailing ,I think.
-.don’t worry about the balance of the schooner rig , I happen to observe “Des Jours Meilleurs” in France from onboard Pacific Bee real live , and the manoeuvrability and balance is way better than a single spar system. they can do anything with that proa without using a rudder whatsoever.
Its upwind w/speed where the difference kicks in , PB outperforms that big Proa beating hard upwind, no problem.
see http://prao.guillard.free.fr/description2.htm
- Another benefit from this freestanding mast setup is that you can tack this system briefly, in tight quarters. [have to beef up the beams for that, and be sure to have enough ama buoyancy .
Also could ask Laurent , he has a lot of knowhow about sailing a schooner, I much like his creations [without shrouds]
Check on the rig of Presto; don’t change, its perfect for cruising .
cheers Sven
I’m a big presto fan! I’ve sailed a Wyliecat 30 with one big wishbone rig and am a huge fan of the power and versatility of that rig.
Would you put the sail track on the leeward edge of the mast, or would you have rotating masts?
It seems like all bendy, round masts have issues with added on sail tracks—that’s why I looked at the wrap around option. As you pointed out, I created another problem—the stress just above the partners where the self vanging booms are. The added complexity of the bearings is another issue.
Thanks for chiming in,
Chris
I’m a big presto fan! I’ve sailed a Wyliecat 30 with one big wishbone rig and am a huge fan of the power and versatility of that rig.
Would you put the sail track on the leeward edge of the mast, or would you have rotating masts?
It seems like all bendy, round masts have issues with added on sail tracks—that’s why I looked at the wrap around option. As you pointed out, I created another problem—the stress just above the partners where the self vanging booms are. The added complexity of the bearings is another issue.
Thanks for chiming in,
Chris
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Hy Chris
Yes, If Presto would be 3 times faster, that would be my cruising pick. But the way Pacific Prao’s eat away nautical miles remains astonishing.
Anyhow that rig is good in terms of general setup, but needs to be beefed up/changed here and there to make it right for a pacific Proa;
- it should rotate,
- the section parabolic , not round. You will never get a properly attached flow, with round.
- track glued on and taped, a. cars [Harken sliding ones, they work like a dream on Pacific Bee]
b. track ,machine grounded on the backside, to a very rough state, stick it on w/special epoxy paste. It will never come off. ........never say never,hah…....
Cheers Sven
I’ve definitely gotten worked up about the schooner option. I like the ability to steer with the sails coming out of a shunt (and the rest of the time). I like the short unstayed masts that are nice and deep into the hull. I’ve put the mast on the other side of the bulkhead that the aka attaches to. This puts the masts just 8’ apart,, but I like the tight spacing visually. And I like the smallish, easy to handle, self tacking sails.
Of course, the stayed fractional sloop is probably always faster. But for a cruising boat does the ease of handling and low center of effort make sense?
Sven, I have never seen a bendy masted, unstayed rig with an eliptical section mast. From windsurfers to lasers to Wyliecats, they all have round sections. I think some Freedoms had eliptical/wing section rotating masts, but I don’t think that they were too bendy. And eliptical section stayed rotating masts, like on a beach cat, have diamond wires to stiffen them up in the small crossection direction. I’d love to see what you have in mind.
I’ve drawn scampi here with two schooner rigs—both with just over 200 sq ft total. One is a relatively expensive carbon masted, wishbone boomed rig with an expensive sail track and fully battened fat headed sails. The other is the exact same boat two balanced lug rigs. The lug is going to save a lot of money on sailtrack, carbon spars, etc. Maybe the yard is a cut down windsurfer mast, but the boom and mast could be wood composite. I wonder what the difference in cost would be. And how different would the performance be? It is certainly possible to build both rigs, but once you went to the trouble of building the wishbone rigs, I’m guessing that your curiosity about the lugs would wane.
I’m building a lug rig for my 16’ Wa’apa, which I am going to set up as a proa. I bought a 62 square foot sail from CLC that I’m going to mount on an unstayed mast. I’m still excited about the simplicity of the lug. But I absolutely plan on putting a windsurfer rig (left over from Palindrome) in there for comparison.
I’m still intrigued with the stayed rotating cat rig with an occasional jib. But there’s something nice about the schooner.
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