Anyone built a test platform using a regular canoe as the vaka?
I know the quick draw answer to this is yes, and Google finds examples.
My question is a little more focused than “has it been done”.
I’ve been lurking and reading about Pacific pros designs for quite a while now, and have a pretty good idea about what I want to do. I do not want to make any huge mistakes in my project, therefore prudence has made me conclude I should test my ideas first on a lower cost / faster build basis.
I’ve got a 16 foot standard fibreglass canoe that resides alongside the house (with my white water kayak and other items).
After reaching consensus on community-agreed upon design conventions and best design elements, I feel the need to ignore/question some of the things that have proven so far to functionally be best. This is a quality that usually results in finding out the hard way why smarter people than me made the choices they did.
Foils, rudders, rig choices and ama designs all are elements I’d like to experiment with - on a cheap, fast development, test and evaluate framework. Although Newick/Brown trunked rudders seem to be the de facto rudder standard, I want to explore other routes to accomplish the same function. From Mr. Brown’s experienced and knowledgeable commentary, there is little worthwhile space worth exploring between the trunked rudder design and just hanging a paddle off the side.
Getting back to my question, will a typical (wider) canoe hull with lower prismatic coefficient obscure results too much to use it as a test bed in comparison to a narrow, three chine plywood stitch & tape hull? If the hull design of the canoe is too far from proa norms to be a valid test bed I guess I’ll have to knock together a proper hull.
Any thoughts?
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Bill
I really like your approach.
I think a canoe-testbed could give you a lot of answers. I know my models have tought me a lot.
The canoe might not be the fastest or the best pointing proa in the world, but you will very fast easily see differences between different amas, rudders, rigs and so forth…
I have found the proa to be a very forgiving kind of boat. Monos are much harder to get right.
Go for it, and remember youtube, so we all can learn from your experiences.
Cheers,
Johannes
I presume your canoe is an open canoe rather than a kayak?
TINK
Assuming you are talking about the traditional North American style open canoe, it would not be the best choice of hull. These hulls are designed for load carrying, relatively good stability (as a monohull) and shallow draft. The low speed resistance is ok but it may tend to hit a resistance wall at higher speeds and may tend to squat. The fine ends and flat keel line will make it subject to large shifts in CLR for relatively small changes in trim, so that is something you need to wary of if trying to compare rudder systems. At the same time, the shallow hull will not provide a lot of lateral resistance in itself. This may or may not be an issue depending on what your goal is for the final design.
None of this makes it a ‘no-go’, you just need to bear in mind the effects that the hull characteristics may be having on your test results. You could give it a go and design it in such a way that you could transfer the rig, akas and ama to a new hull at a later date.
I presume your canoe is an open canoe rather than a kayak?
TINK
It is an open canoe, but given my years experience paddling white water, I have assumed I would fill the bow/stern segments with air bags and spray cover wrap all the hull except the centre section. Most solo white water canoes have the air bags front and back with a saddle in the middle so very little water can enter as the available volume is minimized. I just want to leave a foot space in the middle between the thwarts. It is no big deal to actually roll a canoe just like a kayak if you get things set up right.
I’ve spent an enormous amount of time swimming and recovering from capsizes in dinghies, skiffs and white water (and the water is cold here in Canada) so preparing for swamping and swimming is second nature.
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Bill
Assuming you are talking about the traditional North American style open canoe, it would not be the best choice of hull. These hulls are designed for load carrying, relatively good stability (as a monohull) and shallow draft. The low speed resistance is ok but it may tend to hit a resistance wall at higher speeds and may tend to squat. The fine ends and flat keel line will make it subject to large shifts in CLR for relatively small changes in trim, so that is something you need to wary of if trying to compare rudder systems. At the same time, the shallow hull will not provide a lot of lateral resistance in itself. This may or may not be an issue depending on what your goal is for the final design.
None of this makes it a ‘no-go’, you just need to bear in mind the effects that the hull characteristics may be having on your test results. You could give it a go and design it in such a way that you could transfer the rig, akas and ama to a new hull at a later date.
My concept is pretty simple - use the canoe hull as the baseline and measure/quantify/document the effects of changes to the external variables. The rig, akas and foils are pretty much throw-away, as they would be about half scale to the final design I’m hoping to build. I’ll use cheap building centre plywood and quickly build with a one-season planned lifespan. I’ve got Velocitek units to data log and an Android tablet I can use to capture things. I write Android Java code for fun, so developing an app for this is trivial.
If I get things right and the testbed canoe proa works as well as I hope, it will give me the level of assurance I can accomplish what I want on a bigger scale. It will also give me a chance to see how well I adapt to shunting and Pacific proa handling in general.
My longer term objective is to come up with a trailer sail camp cruising higher performance boat around 28-30 feet in length. My product development / design background is a curse that always convinces my ego that my own ideas are more interesting than just building someone else’s vision, otherwise I’d get in line to build a CLC Madness.
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Bill
Hi Bill,
I learned how to sail in a 14’ Sportspal canoe with a self-built sailing rig. I had no knowledge of proas and none of sailing either for that matter.
I first built a sailing rig using an old 4.7 windsurfer sail and mast, but no boom, along with a clamp on leeboard/thwart. I tried steering with a paddle, and it worked, but it was impossible to tend the sail, balance the canoe and steer at the same time. So I built a rudder, then added a boom, then a furling jib…
My ‘stupid canoe’ as my wife called it, eventually sprouted a PVC ama and a skiff-like sail rig. On the edge of the hiking seat, I could get it to plane on a reach. It was probably the fastest non-powered Sportspal in Canada. :o) I sold it after it began to leak badly - probably all the torsional stresses of sailing on the hull’s rivets. It was fun, and a great learning experience, but always VERY wet in chop. But I never tried sailing it as a proa - always tacking, and I didn’t like being on a reach with waves splashing into the low hull.
So, a canoe as a proa? I think it could be useful for comparing shunting rigs in light winds and flat water. You won’t get the same speed or tracking, and you will definitely need leeboards to make progress in any direction but downwind, but it could be a good learning platform.
photographic evidence…
I bet it could move with that much rig on it. I built something similar 35 years ago at my parent’s cottage near Tobermory on Lake Huron. You’ve brought back old and good memories. Still remember the first time my brother and I were able to get it to go upwind and avoid paddling altogether. Your is much more Gucci than mine was with the Windsurfer rig and even sprit mounted roller furling jib.
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Bill
‘Gucci’ is very kind. I think maybe ‘Waterworld’.
I used to sail with a bunch of canoe sailors based near Vancouver. One guy had a very impressive 16’ canoe with an EasyRider outrigger and a modified Tasar rig. He could sustain 10 knots on a reach. I just tried to keep up. Good times.
One good thing about canoe hulls is the gunwales are great for clamping things to. If you design your rig, and foils with clamping thwarts, you can adjust as needed to get good helm balance. Maybe if you use two leeboards separated by about half the canoe’s length, you could manage to steer by pivoting one board foward/aft. Then you could use a paddle for occasional course corrections.
Try getting hold of a copy of Canoe Rig: The Essence and the Art: Sailpower for Antique and Traditional Canoes by Todd Bradshaw, I am sure even if you have to buy it it would pay for itself. I have no connections to him but love the book and Todds contributions to other forums.
Good luck anyway, it is an idea I have had. This video is of a tri, but never the less an inspiration.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WBHOJHjR_Rs&feature=related
TINK
Try getting hold of a copy of Canoe Rig: The Essence and the Art: Sailpower for Antique and Traditional Canoes by Todd Bradshaw, I am sure even if you have to buy it it would pay for itself. I have no connections to him but love the book and Todds contributions to other forums.
Good luck anyway, it is an idea I have had. This video is of a tri, but never the less an inspiration.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WBHOJHjR_Rs&feature=related
TINK
Interesting video and well done work. I live on the Ontario/Quebec border and my family is an Anglo/franco-ontarienne melange. Didn’t need the subtitles after listening to my francophone wife (ramasse tes maudite vetements) for 20 years!
Lots to learn - thanks for the post.
A votre sante,
Bill