I am planning on building a mid-sized proa for ocean passages. Some of the trips would be singlehanded.

I have a series of questions and I’m hoping I can draw on your collective experiences.

A) Jib handling in rough conditions

1) My monohull experiences make me weary of living a sail down on deck. How does the “aft” jib do with boarding seas? I like the the idea of leaving the jib hanked on in case you would need to do some unexpected maneuvers, but crosswaves could wreck a sail on deck.

2) How do you change jibs in rough weather?  If you want to take the jib off the stay or switch to a storm jib, the working platform looks a bit exposed. I would not want life lines up there. How about toe rails? How about a hatch?  A hatch might take some water below. How about extending the trampoline up there or can you stand on the spray skirts that I have seen? Roller furling is one solution, but it hurts performance and makes sail changes harder.

B) Steering positions and self steering

1) Some of the steering designs I have seen look like you could either steer from the cockpit *or* the cabin, but not both. How does this work when you want to be inside in rough weather and outside in good?  Perhaps Bieker’s new designs handle this?

2) How does tiller pilot hook up work?  I have not seen photos or drawings.  I would rather keep any autopilot systems below deck as they are not usually waterproof.

C) Handling larger waves

1) While sailing downwind/reaching in moderate waves (trade wind conditions), a proa could easily outrun waves.  Does it skip over the tops, crash through, submarine? Is active surfing required to maintain speed?  What about unattended (autopilot) steering? Must you reduce speed?

2) How much different is upwind sailing?

3) Really big waves and gales.  I think my preferred tactic would be a series drogue to keep the boat moving down waves slowly.  Does this make sense? Without sea room, a sea anchor.  Will a proa “forereach” with an anchor (ala the Pardey’s).  Can you get the boat to lie about 40 degrees off the wind?  I know this typically works better on monohulls with a full keel.

4) Drogue and sea anchor attachments.  This is typically done with a bridle.  Just on the main hull or the main and the ama? I would assume relatively light loading with proa displacements.  Any gotchas?  I was planning some re enforcement in the ends to lessen the damage of a high speed collision with gyre/tsunami type debris.  This might be a good place to embed attachment points.

D) Knockdown and Capsize

1) First line of defense seems to be good boat handling.  Second line of defence is floatation from the pod and reduction of windage due to heel. I’m looking for a third line of defense. This might only be needed after ama damage due to a collision.  I’m thinking about inflatable airbags to leeward. These might be something like medium sized racing marks.  Also wondering about hydrostatically activated floatation on the mast.  This might be similar to auto inflating PFDs, though windage might be a problem in normal operations.  Will these work? Any other ideas?

E) Other Issues?

1) What have I missed?

Thanks,
-jak

This is what we all hope to one day hear from Russell Brown. There are very few people out there with this kind of experience and knowledge.
My best advice is to build a model and test it in big waves, close to shore where the waves get steep and ugly. Film it with a high resolution camera and watch it in slow motion. You get a real good idea of how the hull behaves.
Its not easy to test out shunting and trimming the sails this way though.

Cheers,
Johannes

I agree with Alex, but to that I would add: SURF!

Getting a small boat across surf and back on on windy days really tests your boat and your seamanship. In many ways, it is harder than big seas where the distance from crest to crest is much longer. Also, big surf puts you in a “wind shadow.” So you can suddenly find yourself de-powered with a big wave bearing down on you. Scary!  A tall sail, despite all its difficulties, can give you a wing tip up high to catch a bit of air so you can at least keep your nose pointed the right way. I think that if If you can handle surf, you can handle big seas. In Hawaii, btw, they specialize in surf boats. Once you get the hang of it, it is fantastically good fun.

My experience there is mainly in Hobies and Lasers. The Lasers are too twitchy for my tastes, but the Hobies actually do OK. Er, I should say, that, actually, I preferred to paddle Hawaiian style outriggers.

Out on the north shore of Oahu, they have some BIG waves. Bigger than anything I’ve ever seen in the open ocean. (Bigger than anything I’ve ever seen, in fact.) Seriously good fun, but you seriously need to know how to hold your breath for a minute when you get capsized, pushed down, and held under.

So surf will show you how the boat will handle steep, fast, breaking seas.

Aloha,

Before being able to answer any of your questions, what do you call a medium sized Pacific Proa ??
is that 25,  30, 35,  40 ,50 feet?  what displacement , SA?

Size & Displ ,  make very different [design] decisions necessary offshore.

per example I call Pacific Bee     small sized at 38ft and about 4000lbs
                       
                                          medium sized     the recently designed   models   45’  3000kg &  52’  3890    
                                          big   I think anything above 56ft /5000kg  

I went up and down in design size ,in the recent year,  more than 60 different configurations between 34ft and 66ft where designed to find the ideal sizes for offshore cruising , but again this is very personal. 
The end result [for me] is   small = successor of Jzerro/Pacific Bee   at 38ft 1800kg
                          big   =  53ft , the one that we just started to build,  as that is the rig that could just be handle , without running into huge forces to give an sample mainsail = 60m2 Jib 44m2 reacher 84m2
At this size, the sails necessitates smart handling tricks & gear.

well before I start walking too fast , best establish what sizes you thinking of ,before your questions could be answered to the best of our ability , reality checked on-board both Jzerro & Pacific Bee.

cheers Sven

Sven,

Your small is my medium large.  I was thinking 32 - 35 feet with enough weight/volume to keep it manageable. I would not need a huge amount of sail area as I would rather optimise for 15 to 25 knots of wind than less.  Some of the sail area could be carried as free flying jibs (code 0, code 5) for more flexibility. I would like to be able to reef down to a storm jib and withstand 40+ knots and accompanying waves (perhaps with a drogue), if caught out off our Northwest coast.  I don’t feel I need a lot of storage on this boat.  I’d try and make the boat unsinkable with a combination of air bladders surrounded by foam and extra flotation bags to be inflated in an emergency.

I’m not sure what the SA/D should be for this wish list.  Also don’t know how much a proa this short would pitch between waves. This may be too small for these requirements. I think it would be doable, but I don’t have experience with these designs.

Thanks,
-jak

Sven Stevens - 25 April 2013 02:29 PM

Aloha,

The end result [for me] is   small = successor of Jzerro/Pacific Bee   at 38ft 1800kg
                          big   =  53ft , the one that we just started to build, as that is the rig that could just be handle , without running into huge forces to give an sample mainsail = 60m2 Jib 44m2 reacher 84m2
cheers Sven

Sven,
You either said too much or not enough…

A 53 ft proa under construction?...
Pictures… or it’s not happening 😉

Seriously, I am sure a lot of us would be very interested and want to know more about your project.

I am myself day dreaming of a big ocean cruising proa and came to the same conclusion that a 50, to 55 ft boat, with a displacement to length ratio around 35 (which seems crazy for any monohull sailor, but is achievable for a proa, I believe) would be the max you can handle with a small crew of 2 or even single handed.

Please show us more!

Laurent

Laurent - look at the pacific bee thread, he’s posted on it there.

reply #1 thick
Aloha Jak, reading through your mails, I filtered out the following,
1. Your near the optimum source ,being in Port Townsend , I suggest; make good use of that.
2. Your intended size, and sketched use is very much the Russell & Paul Bieker designed
Jester class Pacific Proa by the sound of it.
3. So your questions best answered by them, you guys know your local coastal conditions best out there.

Relating to your questions I can only answer with my findings on Pacific Bee in such conditions, which I will do below;

I am planning on building a mid-sized proa for ocean passages. Some of the trips would be singlehanded.
I have a series of questions and I’m hoping I can draw on your collective experiences.
A) Jib handling in rough conditions
1) My monohull experiences make me weary of living a sail down on deck. How does the “aft” jib do with boarding seas? I like the the idea of leaving the jib hanked on in case you would need to do some unexpected maneuvers, but crosswaves could wreck a sail on deck.

Depends on the conditions;  you talk about “boarding seas & crosswaves”  By that time you are seriously reefed down , and did so earlier [i.e. way before that conditions occurred.]  so there are no sails hanging around the deck, are there?  In monohulls you would take away your sails as well, in such conditions.  Essentially it makes no difference to a monohull. 
Just “ Park early   & clear the decks” before the going gets rough.

sailing a Pacific Proa starts with proper trip planning , you need to do that always , use your aircraft [GRIB ] files properly .
offshore or hostile coasts I call that;  weather window sailing WWS. 

2) How do you change jibs in rough weather?

As above . “Park early   & clear the decks”

If you want to take the jib off the stay or switch to a storm jib, the working platform looks a bit exposed.
no , not so . being parked it’s a very flat easy going platform .  and you reefed before it got rough.  I open the deck hatch and put the bigger jib down without folding, and change for the stormjib. 
I would not want life lines up there.

You must put lifelines forward , at least to the leeward site.  When Parked in rough condition, the ama can be suddenly picked up by a wave , throwing you off to leeward.  Furthermore, in that condition , I run a very tight lifeline at the deck centerline, with a very short line to the harness.

How about toe rails? How about a hatch? 
A hatch might take some water below.   

Not so , bit spray maybe, the bows are very high above waterplane, the waves lifting the bows early.

How about extending the trampoline up there

Essentially the leeward lifeline is a net to keep the clew onboard in normal sailing conditions.

or can you stand on the spray skirts that I have seen?

I don’t , but you might incorporate a net in these spraysails.

Roller furling is one solution, but it hurts performance and makes sail changes harder.

roller for jibs are no good for an offshore proa.  If written about the my reasoning in Pacific Bee sails thread.
for flying sails they are really great.

B) Steering positions and self steering
1) Some of the steering designs I have seen look like you could either steer from the cockpit *or* the cabin, but not both. How does this work when you want to be inside in rough weather and outside in good?  Perhaps Bieker’s new designs handle this?

I try to stay away from cold climates as a habit.  So I don’t want inside steering , proa sailing needs attention.

2) How does tiller pilot hook up work?  I have not seen photos or drawings.
It’s a secret , no joking ,  its basically a full wire loop , as normal autopilots do not understand the fact that you all of a sudden go backways.
This loop is simply hooked up onto the tiller in use.  Good Sunday morning exercise to make a planview drawing of such system .
If it doesn’t work I make a sketch for you bit later.

I would rather keep any autopilot systems below deck as they are not usually waterproof.

I use a autohelm 2000 without problems for years. Easier to adjust outside.

continued in next post

reply#2 thick

C) Handling larger waves
1) While sailing downwind/reaching in moderate waves (trade wind conditions), a proa could easily outrun waves. 
Does it skip over the tops, 

depending on bodyshape but no , Pacific Bee is V-shaped , as such it rides a pretty steady line parallel to the surface waves . 
crash through, submarine? Is active surfing required to maintain speed? 

What about unattended (autopilot) steering? Must you reduce speed?
The same as an Monohull , but better ,as you have proper directional stability.

2) How much different is upwind sailing?
A Pacific Proa is in my view the optimum upwind machine.

3) Really big waves and gales.  I think my preferred tactic would be a series drogue to keep the boat moving down waves slowly.
there is a boundary when sailing [under stormjib] becomes too much.  I haven’t been over that boundary yet ,  I was still going downwave at some 50 knots true windspeed under perfect control,  outrunning the breakers.  Lew the former owner of Pacific Bee has been in a 70+knots storm Somewhere mid Gulfstream while running back up North , laying behind a big Parachute [I still carry that one]  for 3 days.  That’s never fun , he came out without damage.

Does this make sense? Without sea room, a sea anchor. 
Don’t get yourself into ; no searoom , get further offshore or stay inside.

Will a proa “forereach” with an anchor (ala the Pardey’s).  Can you get the boat to lie about 40 degrees off the wind?  I know this typically works better on monohulls with a full keel.
Hmmmm, I don’t like that,  you are a sitting duck now , better keep moving with a bit of sail up as long as possible, picking the right course at speed, as such beeing able to steer free of the larger breakers.

4) Drogue and sea anchor attachments.  This is typically done with a bridle.  Just on the main hull or the main and the ama?
Just on the forward heavy mid deck bollard.

I would assume relatively light loading with proa displacements.  Any gotchas? 
No, the loads are big, a lot of wind resistance ,as in any multihull

I was planning some re enforcement in the ends to lessen the damage of a high speed collision with gyre/tsunami type debris.  This might be a good place to embed attachment points.

D) Knockdown and Capsize
1) First line of defense seems to be good boat handling. 
Second line of defence is floatation from the pod and reduction of windage due to heel.
I’m looking for a third line of defense. This might only be needed after ama damage due to a collision. 
Our amas have 7 watertight compartments , so no worrys here .

I’m thinking about inflatable airbags to leeward. These might be something like medium sized racing marks.  Also wondering about hydrostatically activated floatation on the mast.  This might be similar to auto inflating PFDs, though windage might be a problem in normal operations.  Will these work? Any other ideas?
E) Other Issues?  Yes Plenty…………………where to start?  when discussing a new idea/design , the audience needs to know your total concept specification, to be able to picture your proa, that way you open up a discussion on the total concept, next people join into the discussion, and you might be able to make some valuable trade-offs in design.  …What helps, is a lot of posted sketches of your concept, that way the concept start to live.…. the most difficult part of any design is having a clear picture in your mind of the actual sailing Pacific Proa in various conditions, hence you have to sail a Pacific Proa first to be able to comprehend all encountered aspects, before starting to concept one.  .

1) What have I missed?         
Generally you picked a few highlights,  a design [any design] is only as good as the sum of all the proper parts., I thinks anyone can sketch a pacific proa,  but only after all the individual parts are designed right,  and build accordingly , you may endup with something that is working properly.
If you want to do that yourself, start with a small [open] proa first, to get the hang of the situation.  I was very lucky to acquire Pacific Bee, preventing me from making a few cardinal design mistakes.  I have now drawn up 4 sizes Proas at 38 45 53 56 feet . we are finalizing the scantlings of the 53 and started building the sub-parts.  Pacific Proa design is no walk in the Park, having so many, many variables to play with.

Cheers Sven

I just ran across Steve Callahan’s description of a Pacific crossing in Jzerro.  http://www.stevencallahan.net/images/publications/proa-oceania.pdf
Not sure how I missed this before, but it answers some of my questions from this post.

Does anyone know the details of the disintegrated proas mentioned on page 6?

Thanks,
-jak

jak - 26 May 2013 09:06 AM

I just ran across Steve Callahan’s description of a Pacific crossing in Jzerro.  http://www.stevencallahan.net/images/publications/proa-oceania.pdf
Not sure how I missed this before, but it answers some of my questions from this post.

Does anyone know the details of the disintegrated proas mentioned on page 6?

Thanks,
-jak

Hi Jak, What disintegrated proa??    mentioned on page 6?  , can you be more specific, I don’t understand what you mean ?
cheers Sven

In Callahan’s article, he mentions proas breaking up offshore on page 6.

-jak

I only know of three proas that started to break up offshore. Russell Browns first proa, the Jzero broke an aka in some heavy weather offshore, but that was his first very cheap 2X4 hemlock (?) akas.
The first and only Harry-asymmetric-catamaran to do some offshore cruising did not like some heavy seas on the Tasman sea. I don’t care much for those so I can’t say much more about that.
If I remember correctly Sven Stephens did not use the wires that cross from end to end between the ama and vaka at first which put very big loads on the akas in some heavy weather on the mediterranean. He was able to limp back into port on his own.
Please correct me if im wrong here. This is all from my memory at the moment.

Cheers,
Johannes