Proud Mary
A reefing claw fitting popular back in the 70’s would work nicely to reef a Gibbons that doesn’t use a a boom.
Johannes,
If this is your first boat you have built and you start out with building a beautiful proa! That is very impressive!!!!
Thank you, glad you like it. It is the first “real boat”, but for amusement you can look at my cardboard boats 😊(sorry, a bit off topic, but the first one is a proa!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5fqp4fu-v0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tgrhxlLWgk
My experience is that continuous rocker is superior in almost every way (speed, general behavoiur in waves tracking etc) compared to having a flat section in the midle. Every sudden change of the flow (cross-section or change in the rate of change) will create a sudden change in pressure = wake = drag.
Water does not “like” being showed aside.
You are right, at least according to Bolger… I didn’t consider this when we built it, and now, it doesn’t bother me much, I don’t know any different on this boat, but it goes well enough for me, and the fisherman have a flatter seat on the beach!
Chris,
It might not work without lashing the ends. But it will probably work a lot better. That should reduce the pillowing from rolling up the sail as well. And it shouldn’t be too hard to do with the sail down.
If you REALLY wanted to go nuts you could use those diagonal battens like the Hobie Adventure Island. Except in this case they’d be in a chevron . That would keep the ends tight (for a while) and give you some leech.
I agree that it could work well, but I tend to go nuts by not adding anything not essential and complicated! (hobie stuff is cool thou!)
I’m also quite interested in the “reefing claw fitting” mentioned by Gary Dierking on previous post.
I’m planing to make another sail with a better cut and bigger, will make it with a reefing system then.
It looks like your yard is about the same length as the boat. How long is your mast? What is the angle between the mast and yard when you’re sailing.
The mast is 12’(but adjustable at the bottom +-2’), yard 22’. I do try different angles, by raising the yard higher or lower and adjusting the stays, It seems to work better when the top of the mast is just past the foot well (that is my 3rd adjustment knot on the stays!) very scientific I know… 😊 ... looks about 20 or 25degrees.
I’ve made some progress on my 24’ P.M.-rigged walap…renderings are coming soon.
I cant wait to see the renderings!
Attached goes my drawings of rig bits. I think you will see all lengths there.
Gary Dierking,
Thank you, I didn’t know about this fitting at all… it could work perfectly!
The sail would probably require a reinforcing band where the fitting would run, but still better than openings.
If I’m looking at it right, it does require a line to each end of the yard to keep it centered in position. Is there a way to do without it?
It might still require lashing the ends of the sail…?
Just to finish, Thanks to all of you, I’m really touched by your kind comments, suggestions and interest. I hope one day I can be of help and support for your projects to.
Cheers,
Hugo
For reefing, if instead of the bolt on the mid point of the yard, and corresponding holes in the sail (not a small feast in itself), could you use regular reef lines?
If you had a row of reef lines parallel to the yard on the sail, with a specific stronger one smack in the middle of that row of reef lines, you could stop the boat, lower the yard, untie the “halyard”, roll the sail, tie all the reeflines around the yard, and with the middle reef line, stronger and longer, after the tying of the sail to the yard, use the loose end of tha middle reef line to make a loop to which you can re-attach the halyard, and raise the sail again.
I am sure others have tried that before…
Does it work well?
Laurent
I came to think that it is what makes it so sensitive to “butt steering”, as the fact that the rectangle is almost perfect makes the center of lateral resistance move much more to the ends of the hull when it rotates on the horizontal plane. Eg, if your weigh is towards the back the front comes up and the underwater shape is a triangle with the center a lot more to the back.
Not sure if this makes sense?
It makes perfect sense. But it does make me wonder why the Marshallese decided to have SO much rocker in their boats. Maybe it was not to optimize steering?
Any thoughts, folks?
For reefing, if instead of the bolt on the mid point of the yard, and corresponding holes in the sail (not a small feast in itself), could you use regular reef lines?
If you had a row of reef lines parallel to the yard on the sail, with a specific stronger one smack in the middle of that row of reef lines, you could stop the boat, lower the yard, untie the “halyard”, roll the sail, tie all the reeflines around the yard, and with the middle reef line, stronger and longer, after the tying of the sail to the yard, use the loose end of tha middle reef line to make a loop to which you can re-attach the halyard, and raise the sail again.
That’s a cool idea. And by tying the halyard to the center reef point, you do eliminate the forces that make the sail want to unroll off the yard. But the yard is still able to rotate and bunch up inside the reefing lines. Who knows if it would, but it can.
Also, the reefing line approach is MORE holes than the single row down the center. if the yard was 3” in diameter, the circumference would be about 9.5”—so two holes would suck 18” out of the sail. If it was 2” in diameter, each roll would be 6 1/4”—so you’d have 3 holes for those same 18”.
And then you’d just have to lash the ends—no other reef points.
But I may be missing something. Wouldn’t be the first time….
Best,
Chris
For reefing, if instead of the bolt on the mid point of the yard, and corresponding holes in the sail (not a small feast in itself), could you use regular reef lines?
If you had a row of reef lines parallel to the yard on the sail, with a specific stronger one smack in the middle of that row of reef lines, you could stop the boat, lower the yard, untie the “halyard”, roll the sail, tie all the reeflines around the yard, and with the middle reef line, stronger and longer, after the tying of the sail to the yard, use the loose end of tha middle reef line to make a loop to which you can re-attach the halyard, and raise the sail again.I am sure others have tried that before…
Does it work well?Laurent
And the reef lines act as telltale as well! I like that.
Thinking of it, I’m sure I’ve seen sails like that…
Will post an image with the rope system I was talking about, I still think it would be the simplest and effective in the middle of the yard. It is the same principle I’m using now to attach the halyard, and it works well. (sorry, I don’t think I explained it very well)
I’ve been trying to simplify all the knots and come up with a system that is working very well. It is basically using kite line knots (sorry, not sure what they are called…). Just need those (3 seconds to tie) and 1 bowline to set the all rig.
Will try to make a rigging video when I next go sailing it.
Cheers
I just noticed that in the pic of the rig above, it says the mast’s pipe is 4’‘. This is not correct, the pipes, mast and yard, are 2’’ in my proa (lazer broken top mast sections).
Cheers
I came to think that it is what makes it so sensitive to “butt steering”, as the fact that the rectangle is almost perfect makes the center of lateral resistance move much more to the ends of the hull when it rotates on the horizontal plane. Eg, if your weigh is towards the back the front comes up and the underwater shape is a triangle with the center a lot more to the back.
Not sure if this makes sense?It makes perfect sense. But it does make me wonder why the Marshallese decided to have SO much rocker in their boats. Maybe it was not to optimize steering?
Any thoughts, folks?
The rocker probably makes it easier to steer with paddle. I noticed it was very hard to steer proud mary with the steering oars, or a rudder (unless you moved your butt as well!). That’s how I ended up with nothing but butt steering!
It makes perfect sense. But it does make me wonder why the Marshallese decided to have SO much rocker in their boats. Maybe it was not to optimize steering?
Any thoughts, folks?It may be partly the fact that simply getting some of the hull down deeper in the water will give you better lateral resistance and better windward performance without boards.
The rocker probably makes it easier to steer with paddle. I noticed it was very hard to steer proud mary with the steering oars, or a rudder (unless you moved your butt as well!). That’s how I ended up with nothing but butt steering!
This is very interesting, I noticed on your latest post (the maiden voyage one) you used a paddle. When you save very hard steer could you describe the difficulties you experienced. Another forum has recently discussed paddle steering in detail. I think they identified three main types of steering
1) changing the amount of paddle in the water
2) twisting / rotating the axis if the paddle
3) rotating the paddle about a pivot point from side to side
Second minor point, have you tried adding draft marks on each stem to measure how much you are changing the trim. From what I can see is you butt steering is highly effective and seams to require very little movement which I see as an extremely positive thing. If you look at other butt steered proas ( eg http://youtu.be/CWF64ipSfhg) they look to need much more weight aft, I think this one has much more rocker.
Tink
It may be partly the fact that simply getting some of the hull down deeper in the water will give you better lateral resistance and better windward performance without boards.
As someone who has built a few “butt steered” boats, and sailed on a bunch of other peoiple’s, I’d love to hear your perspective on the advantages and pitfalls you’ve experienced, Gary.
It may be partly the fact that simply getting some of the hull down deeper in the water will give you better lateral resistance and better windward performance without boards.
As someone who has built a few “butt steered” boats, and sailed on a bunch of other peoiple’s, I’d love to hear your perspective on the advantages and pitfalls you’ve experienced, Gary.
When sailing my old 31’ Te Wa, we mostly sailed standing up. We’d be reaching along with the wind abeam and if I wanted to head upwind, I’d send someone up to sit near the bow. If I wanted to bear away quickly we’d all head aft. Sail trim is also part of it especially with the oceanic lateen rig. Sheeting in causes you to bear away and easing the sheet will cause you to head up. The only time this isn’t satisfactory is on a very broad reach where a slight course change could get you into a gybe. I always had a steering oar and used it if I needed to go downwind. The Gibbons rig I used later on a smaller proa didn’t have the same steering effect mainly because (I think) because of the shorter foot of the sail.
Sail trim is also part of it especially with the oceanic lateen rig. Sheeting in causes you to bear away and easing the sheet will cause you to head up. The only time this isn’t satisfactory is on a very broad reach where a slight course change could get you into a gybe.
Hmmm…falling off when you sheet in and heading up when you sheet out is the exact opposite of what you want….
Thanks for your reply, Gary!
chris
Hmmm…falling off when you sheet in and heading up when you sheet out is the exact opposite of what you want….
One of the features of the oceanic lateen is that it is very resistant to stalling when oversheeted. This allows the sail to be used for sail trim without the loss of efficiency you would see with other sails.
-Thomas