New Watertribe Proa for UFC
Veteran Watertribe competitor “Crazy Russian” has let the proa out of the bag: He’s building a racing proa for the Ultimate Florida Challenge 2014! From the Crazy Russian blog:
CrazyProa.
Concept of fast modern proa has been sitting in my head for a few years already. I could see the boat. She would be light, easy to paddle, fun to sail and fast. She would have slender main hull, vaka. Sit on top. No cockpit. She will have narrow trampoline, just enough room to sleep on. All control lines are led to trampoline along beams, akas. She will have modern high aspect unirig, sitting in the middle, with wing mast. She will have unusual rudders, located at the ends of main hull, dagger type, remotely operated via control lines. There will be rudder locking mechanism. It would lock the front rudder in center position. The front rudder, partially lowered will work as a daggerboard.
And, how they say nowadays, OMG, she will have articulating akas. Ama, outrigger, short, planning type, would slide back and forth, bringing my body to where ballast needed. To center, while going upwind or to back while sailing downwind. Also with outrigger (ama) folded, she will be narrow paddling platform to navigate rivers.
Is this the year a proa finally wins it? Stay tuned!
(images via the blog)
It’ll be interesting to see how those rudders hold up.
This guy has done some interesting and ballsy things in past events. If you read through the (translated) Russian language blog mentioned on the Yahoo site, it shows a lot of thought, especially Watertribe UFC event thought has gone in to this proa concept. He’s working with Graham Byrnes - a former Challenge winner who owns B&B Yacht Designs (Core Sound, EC22 etc.).
The EC and UFC are really condition-dependent events, where the boat that is a clear winner one year may not be competitive another. Inside (ICW) versus outside, smooth versus rough, shallow water checkpoints, dense weed, mud flats, low bridge (mast dropping) choke points, no wind (paddle) versus too much (reefing on the water), head winds versus tail winds. Graham’s Core Sounds (15’-20’ cat ketch rigs) and EC 22 (better hull design with cuddy evolved from Core Sound series) have all won - multiple times. The fastest EC-specific design boat out there has been Randy Smythe’s Scissors folding trimaran, but it has had fragility issues (capsize & breakage last EC).
Tornados and larger beach cats have won.
I’ll really be following the design decisions, trade-offs and compromises chosen on this boat. I hope we can get the Crazy Russian to join in here.
John Harris (Chesapeake Light Craft President) entered his 20’ wingmasted Mbuli proa in this challenge once - too much wind, broken rudders and broken Ama Bruce Foil daggerboard - in the first day or so of the event. 10 knots speed - under bare poles!
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Bill in Ottawa
Have we talked about this? Its a very interesting EC/UFC boat with a uni rig and rudders at each end (ala Skip, Pizzey, etc).
http://watertribecrazyrussian.blogspot.com/
there are some new pix of this boat on the sailing anarchy EC thread too….
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=154929
Very interesting stuff by a very accomplished raider…
There are some really cool boats nearing completion!
Any that you’re thinking of?
Yes, we have talked about it: New Watertribe Proa. I’m also moving this thread over there, since “Designs and Concepts” is only for posting your own designs.
Update: OK, I seem to have merged the two threads successfully into one. Amazing! 😉
John Harris (Chesapeake Light Craft President) entered his 20’ wingmasted Mbuli proa in this challenge once - too much wind, broken rudders and broken Ama Bruce Foil daggerboard - in the first day or so of the event. 10 knots speed - under bare poles!
The EC has been hard on proas, In 2006 Carlos Somalia had to pull out early and Chuck Lienwebber and I made it to Indian Key before we had to call it quits. Proas almost got banned after that but fortunately Chief relented a bit at the last minute. A good rule that came out of that event was reefing requirements.
Crazy Russian is an indomitable force on the water and I wish him well in the event along with all the other adventurers, Has to be quite a change going from inflatable (heavy) catamaran to a quick and lean proa. Good friend and proanaut John Wright AKA Karank is going in a solo sailing canoe, needs to come back to help trial out BB.
Cheers,
Skip
The EC has been hard on proas, In 2006 Carlos Somalia had to pull out early and Chuck Lienwebber and I made it to Indian Key before we had to call it quits. Proas almost got banned after that but fortunately Chief relented a bit at the last minute. A good rule that came out of that event was reefing requirements.
Crazy Russian is an indomitable force on the water and I wish him well in the event along with all the other adventurers, Has to be quite a change going from inflatable (heavy) catamaran to a quick and lean proa. Good friend and proanaut John Wright AKA Karank is going in a solo sailing canoe, needs to come back to help trial out BB.
I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about this - and I’ve reached some conclusions which will help how I proceed with my design. Not surprisingly I share much of CrazyRussian’s general thinking.
1) There is a minimum size sweet spot for proas that are big enough to have rudimentary interior vaka accommodations and still maintain minimum waterline 12:1 L:B or greater (16:1 being a good target). Unless you subscribe to the Harryproa concept of hefty WTW, this means 24’ is about the smallest you could build and have a wide enough bunk in the vaka.
2) Newick/Brown trunked rudders are not optimal for this (frequently) thin water application. Some of the narrow passages and cuts are not really shunting-friendly, especially when shunting means switching which rudder is immersed and lifted.
3) The stayed midline (fore/aft) sloop rig where jibs are dropped and raised/unfurled on each shunt is a lot of work as well. Unstayed (or partly stayed) cat/ketch or schooner rigs make much more sense. From a tensegrity point of view, a single windward stay per mast from hounds to ama would provide a lot of benefit with minimal impact on rig rotation in the event of a rotating mast and backwinding. I think emergency tacking capability is pretty important. Diamonds (both side and forward) could help stabilize the column in concert with the single side stay. Doing this (mostly) unstayed indicates well braced long mast stubs and hull sockets would be required.
4) Human propelled options are pretty easy to narrow down in a hurry. Rowing doesn’t seem easy to “fit”. Neither does paddling. What does look possible is sculling, Yuloh or a mirage drive arrangement on the trampoline close to the vaka for balancing lateral drag.
5) On the water adjustable water ballast would be a great asset to minimizing weight and attaining optimal righting moment for varying conditions. I envision opposing twin tube type bailers which either fill or drain above waterline baffled ballast chamber(s) in the the ama. Putting the (currently) forward one down adds water, and putting the aft one down drains it, with a neutral locked position in between. Some type of Rube Goldberg arrangement of lines could handle this.
6) Although John Harris’ description of the Bruce foil daggerboard failure on Mbuli was very cautionary (it broke while he was walking towards it to lift it when it grounded on a sandbar), with a lifting post and blocks this could be lifted and dropped (in line with the trunk slot) without laterally loading the daggerboard in the same manner. I really like the theoretical benefit of a Speer-type Ogive foil increasing righting moment and lateral resistance - but would want better grounding / lifting tolerance than Mbuli.
7) If I were to consider attempting the EC, I’d have a different unstayed round non-winged mast softsail/wishbone boom option for the race that would allow Hobie Adventure-style rotary reefing. In normal use I would want a more normal beach cat-style rotating wing mast. I would consciously give up 10-15% upwind performance advantage to make the boat useable and easy to manage reefing for the EC/UFC. John Harris’ post mortem on Mbuli’s problems makes this clear. The EC and long distance/short sleep adventure racing brings necessary compromises to my planned design.
8) Given I come from a place where 40 degree F water is considered warm two thirds of the year, enclosed cockpit options are pretty important. Spray management is critical as is maintaining adequate volume in the bows to prevent pitchpoling and deck wash. Right now you can walk across my “home” venue.
9) I like CrazyRussian’s parallelogram folding concept, although it brings overall trailable length (@30’) into the scary range if left connected on the trailer. Cost, trail-ability, legal trailing considerations are all factors. My travel to the EC would be 24 hours non-stop drive time (I’ve done it with three drivers).
It’s hard to balance what you want with what you can afford (both time and money) - especially when considering a very complex set of requirements like the Everglades Challenge. I’m lucky my requirements (rough and rudimentary camp weekending at best possible speed) are a close fit with RAID events.
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Bill
Apparently CR entered the Everglades Challenge last weekend but DNF, due to steering difficulties. I hope we will be updated shortly on the Crazy Russian blog.
Here are some pix on the beach, before things went pear shaped.
here are some rudder details.
these 4 pix are from Sailing Anarchy.
Would jib sails help balance things out?
Would jib sails help balance things out?
Trent,
Not in the least…...It is all to do with rudder area equilibrium and the (ideal) trailing edge becoming a very unforgiving leading edge.
Any one who has reversed a decent sized yacht, whilst forgetting what happens when the rudder bites, soon is very abruptly reminded, by either having the tiller / wheel wrenched out of their hands, or if the tiller is big enough, being thrown bodily clean across a cockpit. There are some serious forces involved and it happens all too quickly if you are not prepared for it…....And if the rudder is jammed across whilst still moving, it is very difficult to get it back to and keep it central without stopping first. And even if you do, watch out for the whack the other way.
Now that you can see the details of CR’s rudders, it is all pretty flimsy and no real surprise that he had problems with it, carbon and all.
Rob
I would prefer to wait for CR’s account rather than speculate.
I would prefer to wait for CR’s account rather than speculate.
Fair enough…..