Here’s another musing on the 24’ proa accommodation conundrum.

Dinghy on a stick took the approach of being an outdoor boat.  Its a daysailer with a big open cockpit,with your feet in the vaka.  And it happens to use a pram as a safety ama.

Palindrox goes the other way.  Its all accommodation. You sit inside all the time.  There’s no cockpit, just a comfy little cabin to drive from.  One of my favorite designs like that is Matt Layden’s Paradox ...

http://www.microcruising.com/paradox1.htm

and then there’s the standing headroom of Phil Bolger’s birdwatcher…

http://bolgerbirdwatcher.blogspot.com/

and of course Blondie Hasler’s Jester is one of the earliest of the type…

http://www.jesterinfo.org/jester.html

and our own editor’s Samwise series always intrigued me….

http://proafile.com/search/results/3521adfc46eec0d3be8a8a2429cb50e2/

So Palindrox is a Paradox that’s a Palindrome.  It has an open airy greenhouse that provides a lot of protection from the elements while at the helm. Its 56” from the peak of the cabin top to the chine. And the green house is 44 inches wide at the base.  Each of the two helm stations would have comfy sling chairs to sit in.  Generous hatches (not shown) would open her up in nice weather.  Cruising accommodations would be a single bunk, 80” long.  Two people could ride comfortably in the greenhouse, facing each other for socializing, sitting in tandem underway..  That’s all that should go anyway.  Joyriding would take place on a simple bench to windward, also not shown yet.

I’ve rigged it as a cambered junk measuring 211 sq ft.  Maybe when you’re racing you’d raise a headsail too.

Anyway, this boat has a LOT more windage and skin than the dinghy on a stick.  It will take longer to make (I think…) than the dinghy on a stick.  But it might just work.  I’ll add some more detail to the model soon. including hatches, stays, etc.

All the best,
Chris

Once more with feeling…

This is the line of thinking I take with most of my design ideas.  Cruising the PNW, it’s quite often cold and wet. In my box keel concept,  I stretched the pod longitudinaly to give berth flats in each end, and a sitting headroom/salon/pilothouse area in the middle.  I’m still playing with the concept, but 16:1 at the waterline gives me a 16” wide “footwell” the length of the boat.  Heavy stores down in this keel at the inmost end of the bunks would do a lot for reserve stability and dampening motion.  Construction would be dirt simple (fast)

My initial “Hulls” models tell me it’s doable.

The one big question is how well will it sail, and can I make it prettier than margaret thatcher…....

Tom

Here’s a somewhat spruced up version…with a windward cockpit made in the same tool that the bottom of the windward and leeward pods.

But as I began going through the proces of how I’d be building all of those sweeping curving surfaces, I started to think about the lessons learned with the flying apple crate.  Namely, the windward side does not need to have so much curvature.  Also, If I could keep the vaka simple, with the deck right on the gunwale, and build the greenhouse using flat sheets, the building gets a LOT simpler.  It looks less slick, but it makes a LOT of parts much easier to fabricate.

In a way, this is taking a page from Arpex’s book.  I’ve long admired the comfy looking accommodations on that boat.

Anyway, even though I’ve taken a lot of the sexy curves out, I think it still comes out fairly handsome. 

My concern is that I’m trying to get 10 pounds of, uh, sugar, in a 5 pound bag.  But then again, the greenhouse only rises up 18” above the beams which is 26” above the gunwales.  Is that too much windage for a 24’ proa?  She might benefit from a couple more feet for good measure.  The simplified vaka might make that fairly easy.  But more is always more…money, time, cost….

Anyway here is my easier to build version.

Here’s a comparison of the apple crate, and the latest Palindrox.

Getting all of the controls inside the cabin (rudders, sheets, dagger board up and downhauls, all times two) and keeping it watertight-ish might be an issue.  But there’s not *that* much more windage for the cabin house than for my comfy, high sided cockpit on the apple crate.

The more I think about how dry and cozy it would be in there, the more I like it.  We’ll see how dry it can stay in practice!

Chris,

I’m liking the greenhouse.  While I love lots of swoopy curves, I also see all of the labor in getting all of the bevels and layouts to make then happen.  One also ends up with a lot of narrow nooks and crannies that are hard to utilize.  One reason I keep the 90 degree hard right angle on the shoulder of the box keel is just how stupidly easy it will be to loft and ow easily the room is used inside.  There’s also not the messy interface to build between a more traditional pod and the hull.  Bunk flats go in the ends really nice with stowage underneath.

I’ve been starting to play with a more vee’d bottom keeping the same above waterline shape, but all it really does is add wetted surface while probably reducing chine turbulence a bit.  I’m already thinking I’ll be relying on foils for lateral resistance.

One thing is for sure, even with the green house your boat is going to be damn attractive.

Tom

I agree with Tom, Chris, in that it will look very attractive. The shape doesn’t lose anything by being simplified, imo. In fact, I think it complements the glasshouse better. And the glasshouse makes so much sense especially coupled wit a junk rig.

Thanks for the feedbackl, guys.  The work-boat-ier feel is growing on me.  I think that the line that connects the inboard, top edge of the aka to the leading edge of the pod is pretty much its saving grace.

He’s still not as pretty as Madness, but about 1/2 as much boat to build.  And a very cool little cabin to hang out in, underway or at anchor. 

I think I figured out a simple way to get the steering inside, and still be able to drive from the windward bench on a nice day.  I’m also noodling on a cool folding mount for the 2.5hp yamaha.

Cheers!
Chris

I too am growing fonder of the “work-boat-ier feel.” My own designs have rapidly evolved from racing fantasies to boats that will do their job(s).

And Chris, I really enjoy your beautiful renderings. My brother, who works as a designer, recommended Solidworks as something that could be used both for rapid prototyping and highly finished plans. As a student, I qualified for the $150.00 student version. I’m learning it now, and already I like the way it works.

This boat looks like it would get used. No need to wait for good weather. Very comfortable, no slouch on quickness, and handsome. Nice.

Cheers,
Rick

Chris,

Getting any farther along with this?  I keep comming back to look at it.  About the only thing I’d do really different is arrange the house to make a top partner for the mast, hoping to get enough “Burry” to make it free standing.

Tom

Hey Tom,

I have done some more work—a new windward bench, some changes to the akas, I put some bulkheads into try to get a better feel for the interior space.  I also have some motor ideas I’ve been playing with.  I’m still not happy with my running rigging solutions.

What I really need to do is a proof of concept for rigs.  I want to build two identical 1/12 scale proas and put a cambered junk on one, and a sloop on the other.  If the junk is even in the running, especially to windward, then I’ll use the models to compare different sail cuts.  Specifically, I’m interested in where the best place to put the max chord, and how deep that wants to be.

I hear you on the unstayed mast.  Sure makes it simple and it lowers the mast height by about 30”.  But I cannot resist the tensegrity magic of the stayed proa.

I’m designing a cambered junk for my wa’apa, and a rudder, and a…  I should probably finish that boat before I start the next one…

Thanks for asking,
Chris

Happy to stay interested.  If it was a finished boat with plans I’d probably buy a set.

I’ve got a 75ft2 junk built right now.  If you’re in the PNW you’re welcome to stop buy an borrow it to plug into your Wa’apa 😉

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/photos/album/775420805/pic/list

Tom

Thanks for the offer, Tom.  That’s a nicely constructed sail!

Any pics of it full?  How do you like the shape?

Chris,

I typed out a longwinded reply with all kinds of nice details and links on my little netbook, and the response promptly evaporated.  go figure.

http://www.youtube.com/user/tdsoren1/videos 

Is where you can see the sail actually full of wind.  Do yourself a favor and mute the sound.  I did a voice over that even bores the hell out of me.

That was the first time I ever got film of the sail actually working.  It was 4th time out with the boat on the water.

Short answer is I love it.  Even with the following issues, it worked extremely well, especially off the wind.  The pictures on top of the big boat out at the open dock are after I made the mods inspired by watching this video.  I can’t wait to get out and try it again, but we just had 3” of snow in Portland yesterday.  Wierd weather year.

The initial issues are:
1)  Mast was too tall letting the top of the sail move around too much.  I could also pull a nice bow into it with the downhaul 😉
2) tarp used to heavy worrying about strength.  lighter tarp would take up the camber better in light winds where it’s really needed.
3) inappropriate halyard position required too much downhaul tension for proper set, aggravatin too flexible boom and yard.  this all adds up to the flat/wrinkly front section of the sail.
4) sheeting needs to be fine tuned.
5) This is the first thing I ever sewed, so between practice on that and a lighter tarp, I’m sure I could get an even better, cleaner shape.

All that aside, it goes like a raped ape downwind. 2nd time out up the channel I moor on, I actually had a reasonable breeze.  I started out dead downwind agains a 1.5 or so knot current.  Most I’d ever seen out of the boat was @ 4.5 knots with the old bermudan on ANY point of sail.  It’s only a 10’ waterline.  My GPS was showing 4.1 knots agains that current, all sheeting loads an such very mellow.  I couldn’t believe the GPS.  I looked behind the boat at the wake I was leaving, and though I was on my trawler for a second. When I finally tacked back, there was enough wind i had to drop 2 panels, but going downwind it’s manners were just impeccable.  It tacks through the wind NO PROBLEM, even reefed.  I need to get a track on a GPS in some open water to see just how tight it pinches now, and what effect changes make.  The instant reefing has already proven itself incredibly useful (It was one of the main reasons I made the sail), and works as advertised.

I love it.

Very cool, Tom.  How close winded was the boat?  How many degrees between tacks?

Did the boat have a sloop rig before?  How’s the close winded-ness compared to that?

Thanks for all this info!
chris