Pipe Dream
Hi. I am new to the forum. It was suggested on another forum I am a member of, that I
might post this concept for a solar electric sail hybrid here. More accurately an
electric auxiliary ,as the Torqueedo outboard would only be used in constricted
areas, for docking or when there is no wind. What I want is a boat that I can
trailer, that can fit in a twenty foot container for shipping, is fast enough to
make 100 mile a day runs, and yet still entertain eight sleep 6 and cruise 4. In
short a boat through a combination of trailer,container and day sailing, that I, a
healthy man but getting on in years can with my much younger wife and child , tour the
world both land and sea. If solar and electric were to be viable It became apparent
to me that I would need a hull that was extremely easy to push. Human powered boats
seemed to me the logical place to explore. I came across a video of a modern racing
Hawaiian sailing canoe which is what I would consider to be a sailboat with human
auxiliary power.I thought If 7 paddlers can be expected to put out about 150 WATS
each then a boat with similar proportions could be made to preform similarly with a
Torqeedo 4000. Problem solved. I only needed to modify it to meet my requirements.
Two years and many hours on the computer later I have so far managed to build a 1
inch to a foot scale model that at least has led me to believe that I am beyond the pipe
dream stage. I am now about to build a modified one quarter scale sailing model that
will hopefully be large enough to enable me to make some useful observations that I
can use to decide what further changes need to be made, and weather its possible or
advisable to build a full sized version. The proposed boat is just over 60 feet long
and is intended to fold and telescope to just under 20 ft long by 8 and a half feet
wide to trailer and to fit with trailer in a 20’ container with the rig stored in
the hulls, and the side panels removed. I continue to try and reduce the weight to
under 4000 pounds I think this is achievable using resin infused foam panel
construction. I realize that in some ways this design flies in the face of what a proa
is supposed to be ( simple). But in order to get the length and displacement I
need ,it was the only configuration that provided enough real estate for the solar
panel array and could still be cajoled to fit in a twenty foot container. I am also
aware that The Farrier 33 goes a long way towards meeting my needs. But not all the
way. I am hopeful that I can build the fully equipped proa for less than half the
F 33’s more than $300,000 price tag. Shear fantasy perhaps. But? Animation at
http://youtu.be/PNxZuE4zEwM
hi Timothy,
that is a work of art. The folding is quite “Transformer-like”. Very impressive indeed. It won’t fit in a standard shipping container as designed, though, I’m sorry to say. The container is 8’ wide at the outside dimension and the doors leave an opening of just over 7’ wide (7.15m, if my memory serves me correctly).
Your design has some features that Rob Denny has been working on for some years now - folding hulls and telescoping mast. You might like to post it on the Harryproa yahoo forum, especially as the hulls have the weight to windward layout he favours. I’m sure Rob would love to see it and would, no doubt, be grateful for any assistance you might be able to give him.
Fascinating project. Thanks for posting it and linking to the video of the folding in action.
Thats odd - i thought it was similar to your avatar (which i like and want to see a bigger pic of) - in that while the deck pod is nearer the small hull, the rig is on the larger hull/vaka? I really like the idea of a deck-pod proa, as the hulls then needn’t have to be built around ergonomics/people.
This is just the latest iteration of this proa - others had the deck pod/house closer to the vaka. In a cruising proa this also makes sense - as it’s ballast in the right place? Similar to te pookie and even spirit of gaia, who now sports a deckhouse.
Are these wtw or pac pro’s? Or in between?
Does it matter? They’re still proa’s.
Nobody commenting on the solar electric aspect - a proa may be the best (only) way to go with this until the technology gets better?
Thats odd -
What is odd, Alex?
This is just the latest iteration of this proa - others had the deck pod/house closer to the vaka.
You sound as if you are speaking for Timothy. Have you been following his project elsewhere?
Are these wtw or pac pro’s? Or in between?
That’s a question best answered by yourself. There are plenty of opinions on this topic at other proa groups if you want to look up their archives. But it is a place where this forum is not going to go.
Does it matter? They’re still proa’s.
That sums it up well, Alex
I’m not speaking for anyone - just find it an interesting project. First came across it on Boatdesign.net and thought he might get more interest on a proa specific site.
I also like the electric angle - as a slim proa would be a good vehicle for the technology.
I also don’t get the whole “thing” between proa types.
Both types are cool - while i prefer pac proa’s - cheers and other wtw types are cool too.
Don’t want to go there either…...
You had me worried .Door opening for standard 20’ or 40’ international shipping container is 7’ 8 1/8”. It will fit with the side panels removed.
I can remember running a tape measure over one. Perhaps dementia is setting in! i’m glad I’m wrong about that, anyway.
Not all “standard” containers are exactly the same, so it might be wise to always give yourself a bit of wiggle room when it would be catastrophic if it didn’t fit. The ususal party-line from shipping companies is “seven and a half feet” even though there is generally an inch or two more than that available at the door.
We found this out when moving a hull mould which needed to be cut into container-sized pieces for transit; of course, I measured the container before cutting so that the biggest sections would just fit…. but when one of the containers was coincidentally damaged at the port and the load needed to be transfered to another we ran into trouble because the new door was three quarters of an inch narrower than the original. Shaving some off of the mould would have made for a troublesome repair at the other end, but paying the Port Authority to look away whilst we cut the end off of the container and welded it back on (twice, actually…) worked out just fine…
could still be cajoled to fit in a twenty foot container.
Why that constraint? Are you planning to ship so often that the savings from using a smaller container pay for the added building and maintenance cost of more complex folding?
If you accepted a 40 foot container, you could have a catamaran that only needs to fold the beams and lay down the masts, like the boat at http://www.cat2fold.com and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8eL2a_xqkc. I am sure you could entertain eight under a tent between the hulls, and sleep six, and you wouldn’t need to fold any hulls.
Or you could buy a monohull designed to fit into a container: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyCUSEnVxGs. I didn’t spot a price at http://www.containeryachts.com/, though.
Regards
Robert Biegler
When I decided to go solar electric using only commercially available components,as the boat would be in displacement mode under power,it became apparent to me early on that I would need an easily driven hull or hulls. It seems a length to beam ratio approaching 30 to 1 is about the optimum. I looked at the current crop of long distant low powered record attempters and discovered most designers have settled on the stabilized mono hull configuration apparently going for as long and narrow a hull as possible and still allowing enough beam for engine and accommodation. Racing sculls and outrigger canoes without the need of engines are even narrower. Estimating that a human paddler is capable of producing about 150 watts and considering that of the engines currently available the Toqeedo is the the most appropriate for my purpose, I to looked to human powered boats. I was looking at replacing the efforts of 10 to 15 paddlers of an approximate weight 1500lbs. I found that the Torqeedo the solar panels and the batteries weigh considerably less than this. I then did a preliminary weight estimate and determined that if the hull were to draw less than a foot and be of the required displacement it would need to be about 60’ long. a 60 foot hull only 2 feet wide is useless for accommodation so I decided that the accommodation would need to be in the bridge deck and so a proa would be a better platform than a stabilized mono hull. I then considered the righting moment I would require so that I could carry enough sail to push the boat at a speed capable of making the distances I need to cover in a day. I decided that a beam of around 30 ’ would be acceptable if I could keep a significant amount of the weight to windward. Having decided on the basic configuration and parameters I figured that after calculating the weight of a trailer the solar panels the engine the batteries and the house systems I had at most 4500 lbs left for the boat and rig if it were to be possible to tow the whole kit and caboodle with an Suv. This seemed doable if I could keep the total structural panel area to about 1500 sq ft and used infused foam panel construction. Years ago I had seen a design by Phill Bolger for a 60’schooner rigged racing sharpie ( Insolent) that’s hinged ends folded in on the center section so that it could be trailer at 33’. Even using marine ply panels it weighed less than what I need to achieve. I experimented for a while to develop a hinge without a protruding pin and found that if I used a kind of radiused tongue and groove finger joint I could have the hulls fold in on themselves under the bridge deck. With hulls 2 ’ wide at the widest section this made for a folded beam of just under 7’ 8” and a length of 33, an acceptable length and beam for trailering and for loading into a 40’ container. Leaving it at that would have made for a simpler and stronger boat with a folding system no more complicated than that say of an F33. But I want to build and store the thing in a 20’ shed or garage so I didn’t want any piece to be any more than 19’ long and towing at 20’ seemed preferable to towing at 33’ so I made the bridge deck telescope and the hull ends hinged a la Boldger. Fiddling a bit I managed to reduce the length to just under 19’ 4” so as to fit in a 20’ container.
I saw pictures of Ted Warren’s new ultralight 20’ tri the other day and it occurred to me that if rather than build a one third scale rc model of “Pipe dream” as a next step , I could instead for not a great deal of more work make a modified half scale version for test purposes. If it can be made to work’ my rather small Thai wife, my son, and I, could use it as a car top-able beach camper. I crudely modelled a twenty foot tri with similar dimensions to Warrens 20, calculated the surface area , then modelled a half scale version of “Pipe dream” with the same surface area, that I think can be built using resin infusion’ with only a flat table and a sliced section of pvc pipe as a female mould. To keep the weight down I would use infusion grade Plascore for the core ,glass skins and carbon tow where necessary . Attached is a rendering of the concept that shows a Torqeedo engine in a well and a detachable solar module that contains a refrigerator in a drawer and a propane stove as well as a charger for the Torqeedo The rig lowered and reefed would be the top for over night shelter. The boat and rig would fold and reef in the same fashion as in the animation of “Pipe Dream”. I show it beside the crude model I made of a 20’ tri for purpose of scale. I am returning to Thailand next week and am wondering weather or not to pursue this idea.. Is it feasible?
That’s an incredibly cool looking proa, Timothy. It appears that the beams, ama and utility nacelle slide fore and aft along the main hull? This would place the CG aft, a feature much desired in high performance multihulls. Looks to be a rocket.
I am returning to Thailand next week and am wondering weather or not to pursue this idea.. Is it feasible?
Well, being one who has a hard time dealing with duct tape on occasion… not for me. But for you? Only you can answer that.
” It appears that the beams, ama and utility nacelle slide fore and aft along the main hull?” That is the idea.As the vaka is pulled forward the sail gets pulled aft changing luff to leach and pushing the camber inducers against the battens. The center of gravity moves aft and the lifting foil assumes a positive angle of attack. As hopefully the boat should sail with a bow up attitude there should be plenty of reserve buoyancy to maintain trim and prevent pitch poling. A C Class cat with wing weighs about 350 lbs all up . It is 25’ by 14’. Ted Warrens ultalight tri 20’ by 14 weighs just 175 or 225lbs depending on the rig. I just checked his website and he has a design for a 25 ’ strip plank build it yourself proa that weighs 250 lbs. The half scale version of “Pipe Dream” would be 30’ by 15’ but with about the same panel area as the Warren ultralight. I would like to know before I go any further and build a test boat to validate the “Pipe Dream"concept, if it is feasible to build the half scale version of C sans utility pod at under 275 lbs so that it could be transported on a car top.