Sven,
wonderful,  and superb drawings - way beyond my dreams.  So, when is she to be built?  And will this mean Pacific Bee will be sold (if so she might just be within my dreams -  and pocket).

Can I be cheeky and ask for a look at an interior plan?  As you mention interior space is always the downside of a proa.  I have noticed how there is a sudden jump in useful space when looking at a 35ft tri compared to one below 30ft,  I guess the 15m will be pleasantly spacious.

Cheers
Mark

answer to Chris White post 15

Sven,
I like the idea of being able to partly disassemble the Proa for shipping in a container but my own plans are to retire aboard.  I imagine that building the same boat without the ability to break down would make construction simpler and cheaper.[/color]

SS;One piece proa = Barely cheaper, besides its also convenient to build smaller items,  its easier to move and work on when walking around a small part on a workbench.

CW;What is your method of construction?  I am experienced with cold-molding and that would be my preference for construction methods.  I would guess 5 x 3mm veneer with glass over plus plywood bulkheads.  I think building the Vaka in left and right halves like Pacific Bee over station moulds and stringers would be easier for for me.  I prefer your AMA design to Russells, though his are great looking too.

SS;My preferred way is to CNC all parts in various thickness plywood ,and stick that together, the decks might be a hybrid of thin plywood and Corecell as that significantly lightens the deck structure, it consists of a major area of the total surface. Obviously the whole structure is stiffened and well protected against the elements w/ various thicknesses glassfibre/epoxy layers.

CW;]I am wondering if a “dumbed-down” version would be viable - that is a conventional aluminum mast and rig similar to what Russell has always used along with OB powe on a sledr, and as few exotic materials as possible.  A little carbon fiber on the beams would be fine.  I would prefer to build without all the bells and whistles.  My friends who have cruised all over the Pacific for 20 years did so without A/C, watermaker, Pressure water and refrigeration.  Though solar panels do make having more electrical powered items easier, I would just stick to some basic electronics and lights.

SS; Well ,my written down specs . are for a relatively luxurious way of cruising, I did that just to show that anything goes in terms of fit out. Obviously any type of interior setup is possible, I personally think a live aboard proa needs at least the same basic technical fit out as a small house ,RV or proper trailer.

CW;I tend to be a little bit of a ludditte - though a heretic in other ways.  I love the “perfection” of the proa concept, but not piles of carbon fiber, wing masts, resin infusion, etc.  I like the speed, but am happy with fast, not neccessarily the fastest.  I would consider myself a cruiser only and never a racer.

SS; Minimalist is a good starter That’s good thinking,  I hug the KISS principle while designing along……except that the Western rig has a few pitfalls, which can be easily corrected, the first freedom of movement of the mainsail.
we went for a wing mast sticking into a tube. Supported by windward stays to the beam-ends.    So no permanent head stays, rather a temporary backstay to regulate headsail sag.
The small amount of extra cost of carbon in a smart designed wingmast, will be a very good tradeoff against the always necessary alertness while cruising along close-hauled..

SS; about computer use

Without computer power, we would have to spent and waste a lot of time & material,  before a sensible pacific Cruising Proa could hit the water, besides its way quicker to build via the CAD-CAM method. I learned drawing lines plans by hand…..the hard way, computer came around the corner only in 1996, CNC in 2002 , and man did I save some valuable time onwards.

CW; would be willing to pay for lines and offsets with location of major bulkheads and the basic scantlings.  I was going to build a big trimaran (40 - 44 feet) but the idea of a large but no-frills proa with accomodations for 4-5 is very compelling.

SS; A 44 ft trimaran would not compare to a 51 ft Pacific Proa in terms of interior, if you would want to do that its more in the line of a 60ft proa you are looking for.

CW; am very glad that you have shared your designs and concepts as well as your thoughts, etc. on Pacific Bee and Russell’s other proas.  I know that Russell has always said he would never design a proa for anyone and I have always felt sad about that but I understand and respect his reasons. He is a builder and not a designer(of Proas) so it is what it is.  Thanks.
Chris

SS; Thanks Chris, Russell is definitely a very knowledgeably designer, great seat of the pants engineer, and an even greater builder,  besides testing his own creations, he KNOWS the risks, and does not want to put unwary people in that situation.
I share his genuine worry about giving DIY builders /sailors a set of plans, without the ability to very closely monitor the building process, people tend to [purposely or not] fiddle around and constantly change the designed engineering specifications,  without understanding and recognizing the risks they run taken the structure into open ocean,  there is no room for error in such a potential hostile environment.
Sailing Pacific Bee around in bad bad conditions,  I know it’s very important to sense and to throttle back, way before the events start to go out of hand.
On the other hand the Pacific proa sailing is imho saver than cats and tri’s, no nose diving , pitch poling misery to encounter , that’s all well proven by now..
But let this all not influence the proafun too much, stay safe.
Cheers Sven

Mark - 24 May 2012 05:58 AM

Sven,
wonderful,  and superb drawings - way beyond my dreams.  So, when is she to be built?  And will this mean Pacific Bee will be sold (if so she might just be within my dreams -  and pocket).

Can I be cheeky and ask for a look at an interior plan?  As you mention interior space is always the downside of a proa.  I have noticed how there is a sudden jump in useful space when looking at a 35ft tri compared to one below 30ft,  I guess the 15m will be pleasantly spacious.

Cheers
Mark

aloha Mark, interior plan , yes ok , I will do so in a while when I finalized the details.
but just to sketch it for now ;

this proa is primary based on the need for a family platform , in the long holidays, as such I can sleep 6 in double berth and 2 in single berth. i.e. 8pers

[your nose to windward,  from your left bow aft;  this we call the NAV area]
- detachable bow
- very large locker
- rudder trunk & wt bulkhead
- double berth
- beam bulkhead
- large double berth in the pod
- locker and exit to windward side , escape hatch behind stairs
- galley w oven and 3 burner [both diesel
- technical room under raised floor. [batt, watermaker, diesel heater ]

[your nose to windward, from your right bow aft . we call this the HEAD area.

- detachable bow
- very large locker
- rudder trunk & wt bulkhead
- large sanitary unit toilet/shower/lockers
- beam bulkhead
- large double berth in the pod
- locker and exit to windward side
- galley
- technical room under raised floor. [freezer ,fridge ]

ama to consist of diesel genset & waterballast tanks.
large solar panels.

building sequence;
rudders, foils , wingmast, ama, vaka
[ed.18thmarch]  Building is planned to start in may2013.
cheers Sven

Sven,

Thank you very kindly for the fast and detailed responses to both me and Mark.  By saying the whole boat is CNC machined, I infer that you mean the skins are plywood too.  What is the projected skin thickness NOT including glass/epoxy?  Also, are the crossbeams made of CNC machined plywood with glass epoxy?  Do they require any carbon fiber? 

So, as a ball park estimate, how much money are we talking about for what in essence would be a CNC kit? Since shipping from your facility to Norfolk, VA would not be that cheap, I would be interested in buying the “rights” to one boat, with cutting instructions on a CD.  I do have access to a CNC flatbed router/cutter with a capacity of 8 ft. x 16 ft.  I also have a couple of reliable sources for 1088 Okoume and 1088 Meranti plywood at reasonable prices, especiallly for a large order such as what would be required for a project of this size.  The trimaran plans that I currently own are for a John Marples Constant Camber CC40M. The floor space and sleeping capacity are about the same as you have described in your “Unama” design. 

I have cut my sailing “teeth” on Hobie 14s and 16s as well as Lasers and a Flying Fish, Stilleto cats and Tornados.  Being in reality a dinghy sailor, with some blue water experience in 30 to 40 ft. keel boats, I believe that the transition to a proa of Unama’s size would have a steep but reasonable learning curve.  I would spend my first year sailing on the southern Chesapeake Bay prior to making any long ocean voyages. 

Obviously the real problem with sailing the bigger (35 ft. +) proas is that there are so few of them, it is hard for the inexperienced to gain any sailing time.  You can understand and read everything you want, but actual cockpit/ tiller/sheet time is what counts.  When you first sailed Pacific Bee, how difficult was the transition?  I know that you have more experience with large racing yachts, but what were your first reactions to the different sailing characteristics of the Proa? 

Thanks,

Chris

Trimaransailor57 - 25 May 2012 06:51 AM

Sven,

Thank you very kindly for the fast and detailed responses to both me and Mark.  By saying the whole boat is CNC machined, I infer that you mean the skins are plywood too.  What is the projected skin thickness NOT including glass/epoxy?  Also, are the crossbeams made of CNC machined plywood with glass epoxy?  Do they require any carbon fiber? 

Sven;  Carbon Use,  depends if you want very heavy beams or moderate light ones. anyhow the building specs do not require Orma60 heaps of carbon,  besides in some cases Carbon fibre is very viable , because due to its strength you require less total material ,as such the end result is very much the same price.  General; I only use carbon lightly throughout the structure where it makes sense .

So, as a ball park estimate, how much money are we talking about for what in essence would be a CNC kit? Since shipping from your facility to Norfolk, VA would not be that cheap, I would be interested in buying the “rights” to one boat, with cutting instructions on a CD.  I do have access to a CNC flatbed router/cutter with a capacity of 8 ft. x 16 ft.  I also have a couple of reliable sources for 1088 Okoume and 1088 Meranti plywood at reasonable prices, especiallly for a large order such as what would be required for a project of this size.  The trimaran plans that I currently own are for a John Marples Constant Camber CC40M. The floor space and sleeping capacity are about the same as you have described in your “Unama” design. 

Sven; Due to the nature & terms of use of this forum, I cannot discuss any commercial dealings whatsoever, for that you have to send me an e-mail.  I only write on the forum to inform generally of my findings to help develop the pacific proa concept along, I do not allow myself to have two caps here.

I have cut my sailing “teeth” on Hobie 14s and 16s as well as Lasers and a Flying Fish, Stilleto cats and Tornados.  Being in reality a dinghy sailor, with some blue water experience in 30 to 40 ft. keel boats, I believe that the transition to a proa of Unama’s size would have a steep but reasonable learning curve.  I would spend my first year sailing on the southern Chesapeake Bay prior to making any long ocean voyages. 

Sven; I kept & sailed Pacific Bee from Mobjack Bay for two years, Chesapeake Bay is great, except the numerous micro bursts (the only place I managed to get the pod in the water because I was “sleeping” at the helm.

Obviously the real problem with sailing the bigger (35 ft. +) proas is that there are so few of them, it is hard for the inexperienced to gain any sailing time.  You can understand and read everything you want, but actual cockpit/ tiller/sheet time is what counts.  When you first sailed Pacific Bee, how difficult was the transition?  I know that you have more experience with large racing yachts, but what were your first reactions to the different sailing characteristics of the Proa? 

Sven;I would say that an experienced off-shore racing guy can handle a Pacific proa , I think that alertness towards weather , accompanied sea-state , and proper forecast interpretation is a more important issue than the ability to handle the proa itself, as that can be learned relatively quickly.
  ed; febr 13     i.e   weatherwise;  When in doubt Throttle back early.
cheers Sven

Thanks,

Chris

Sven,

Hope you and yours are well.  I have been busy working for a living but am getting close to the time where I can commit both the time and financial resources to build a boat.  I wanted to correspond with you via private email to discuss the possibility of plans, etc. for the 51 ft. Proa.  Please drop me a line with you private email when you have some time to do so. 

Chris White

.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Hi Sven,
I much appreciate the time you have given to answer people’s questions and the information you have shared.
Would it be possible to have a look at your new proa when construction is underway and maybe look over PB?
Cheers,
Ron

Trimaransailor57 - 12 December 2012 12:55 PM

Sven,

Hope you and yours are well.  I have been busy working for a living but am getting close to the time where I can commit both the time and financial resources to build a boat.  I wanted to correspond with you via private email to discuss the possibility of plans, etc. for the 51 ft. Proa.  Please drop me a line with you private email when you have some time to do so. 

Chris White

.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Aloha Chris ,  Yes I have been very busy myself with commercial orders,  but anyhow in between things I remained fiddling around with the detailing and engineering of the 51ft, focusing on getting a full marine plywood building package together, this in order to minimize the labour hours, and to get to a quality product for the lowest possible price and carbon footprint.
It is save to say that the interior design is done fully now.
On mechanical propulsion, there are still several options ,
1. none [ for the purists]  or [like the french , a big zodiac w outboard]
2. outboard engine on a pod.
3. dieselgenset ,propshaft,4 blade fixed prop[propshaft to be raised clear of the water when not in use.
4. electric [ I recently attended a major professional boatfair METS , my conclusion on this matter remains unchanged; ie. too heavy, unreliable , very expensive & seawater and electrics still don’t match very well]

the deck construction will be a composite of thin plywood and corecell/balsalight sandwich ,in order to save weight in the huge wingdeck area ,and further isolating the deck from tropical sun, and preventing condensation .

I made several versions of the same basic platform, that is ;
A. Twin freestanding wingmast version.  [lowers CE dramatically , and makes for simplicity &  great reaching performance] 
B. a single freestanding wingmast version with a helper stay to the ama.  [might add runners]
C. remain with the cheapest ;wing mast &  rigging as on Pacific Bee ,with a removable/ releasable backstay . 

I have approached a few wingmast engineers for a quote on a smart solution versus realistically building prices freestanding wingmast design.[more on masts later]

my details are; Azurspeed Design Group , Tenderfoot Boatworks BV ,  Talmastraat 117, 4812 KA Breda, The Netherlands.  info [at] azurspeed [dot] com , or azurspeed2 [at] gmail [dot] com.  +31 655 108 652
[www [dot] azurspeed [dot] com , new specific proa website in the making] 

cheers Sven
below image;
RUDDER ASSEMBLY ,rudderbox , box watertight bulkhead , keel trustblock, tiller, secretary for sizing.

slainte - 12 December 2012 03:53 PM

Hi Sven,
I much appreciate the time you have given to answer people’s questions and the information you have shared.
Would it be possible to have a look at your new proa when construction is underway and maybe look over PB?
Cheers,
Ron

Aloha Ron,  Although I don’t know where you live,  you sure are welcome, PB is on the trailer outside,  at present we clearing out a corner of the shop to setup the frames of the 51ft .
my location details are in the previous message to Chris

Cheers sven

Sven,

Thanks for the great information.

Can you tell us some about the Vaka to Ama connecting beams (not sure of Polynesian terms)?  Materials, general scantling rules of thumb? Pacific Bee, Jzerro and the new design?

-jak

Hi Jak,  The connection beam between the Vaka and Ama is called Aka.  every part of the Pacific seems to have given different names to these parts.]

about your questions;  Quote ——Can you tell us some about the Vaka to Ama connecting beams (not sure of Polynesian terms)?  Materials, general scantling rules of thumb? Pacific Bee, Jzerro and the new design?—-Unquote

Pacific Bee’s beams are made of layers of battens of redwestern cedar together with plywood sides & ribs , heavily rounded of on the corners and glasswrapped.
The are very very strong , likely two times too strong,  and have never been any cause of concern or damage. [unlike what has been falsely claimed on other forums.]

Jzerro , you have to ask Russell, I don’t know how he build those.

On the new designs I use a very different beam system,  as such that scantlings makes no sense if you use the more common 2 beams system.

Righting Moment
I approach the matter differently; via the maximum RM calculation plus 2.5 fold safety factor, that is much simpler .  you get a figure to design too, instead of guesswork .

also consider that the rigging is attached to the beam-ends, so stiffness & rigidity is paramount , otherwise you rig will shudder when the ama hits a wave.
Furthermore you need serious headstay tension ,so the platform must be very stiff, if you want to point high.

Below Picture is Jzerro aka to ama connection.
Jzerro has IMHO the best aka to ama connection.  its super strong , goes deep into the ama , its watertight , easy to disconnect [trailering] , clear of any water rushing along the deck , an true or alike the ancient constructions. 

I changed Pacific Bee to this system 2 years ago.  [previously they ran into the vaka.]

Cheers Sven

moved to foils & sailplan

Aloha Mark ,

this time I do not understand your daggerboard versus skeg rudder question and/or remark.  can you please formulate your question again in http://proafile.com/forums/viewthread/27/  FOILS & SAILPLAN , so I can properly answer you , thanks Sven

Sven,

What material are the aka mounts made of?  Do the mount arms connect to each other in the hull?

Thanks,
-jak

What material are the aka mounts made of?  Do the mount arms connect to each other in the hull?

Aloha Jak,

In that picture [Jzerro] I don’t know.  I suspect 2 plywood boxes heavily glassed over.
  For Pacific Bee I made up a plywood box , wrapped with UD glass covered w/biaxial glass.
Next I fitted these AKA connectors to the beams , and lifted the ama towards it , bogged and tapped that connectors into the ama.  covered the hole with a deck. thats all.

and yes, the connectors naturally come together in the ama bilge. 

Cheers Sven

below PACIFIC BEE     AKA to AMA connection.